Curse

quickmonty · May 07, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Personally I don't see the need for a higher level cap at all.

Starting at level 1 and working up is essentially how games of this type introduce a learning curve. If you were to start WoW with a level 60 Warlock (for example) it would probably feel a bit overwhelming and confusing. That is the main reason and basis behind the 'level' mechanic.

I'd say by the time you hit level 20 you have a fairly good basic understanding of the game. Possibly this could be increased to 30, but it has increasingly diminishing returns in terms of what the mechanic is actually trying to achieve.

People seem to be under the impression that higher level caps mean more content. Quite the opposite. Difficulty scales with level. At level 10 your are playing content designed roughly for your level, at level 50 your are playing content designed roughly for your level, at level 10000 you are still doing content designed for your level. With a high level cap (where you get benefits for going up in level) there is more content that you can't do because it is designed for other levels.

Level systems are just an illusion, essentially just a title that says "I have managed to get this much experience". Yet another title for people to discriminate by. People who farm endlessly with that one build (whatever is the GW2 version of the '55 Monk') will level up faster than most other players, and will have a massive advantage in getting into PuG groups despite it having little reflection on talent. To put it in simpler terms, if Guild Wars had no level cap them gold farming bots would be outstripping all but the most hardcore in terms of level.

The other downside to not having a level cap (as I explained in another thread) is it's like a title you can't ever max. The very hardcore players, say the top 0.1%, will love it. They have the time and the dedication to reach higher levels than anyone else and obtain the prestige that comes with that. The rest will feel like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick; you know you will never actually get the carrot so what is the point in trying? It removes that incentive to max out.

Then there is alt characters. Why would you ever roll an alt when you may aswell play on that one high level toon you have to keep up with everyone else so you can still get into pug groups?

TLDR: Level caps are just an illusion that achieve very little in terms of adding to the gameplay. A level cap of 20 (in Guild Wars terms) fulfilled the goal of adding a learning curve, and that is all it ever needed to do.

Good post JR. Sums up the way I feel about level cap.

HuntMaster Avatar · May 07, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

If levels dont grant benefits and a level 40 has the same power as a level 100 then it would be pointless to have anything beyond level 40. Grinding xp to access new areas is not a good method. Mission accomplish this with less grind. Also if a level 21 is no different than a level 100 it would be bogus, I mean a level 2 isnt on par with a level 20. I guess people are unwilling to "play" a game, they just want to gain max power and be as good as the best. This is why GW does not require skill, only time. and never will.

Also saying those of us who want a high level cap, as no lifers is very stupid. I want to play 2 hours a night, 3 days a week, for the next 5 years. I could spend that time gaining my levels. I dont need to rush through the game.

Just because a game has 100 levels doesnt mean the players must have no life.

Here's a lesson for you. Moderation in all things. Don't be a video game glutton.

And heres the problem with low level caps of 20. you only have 19 levels worth of benefits and gains. Which limits what can be done in the game. You gain the levels quickly then your left wasting xp by not gaining levels. Up to max level you gain levels + benefits + skill points + attribute points. At level 20 you gain skill points. after you gain all the skills you are left with NOTHING else to do, so gaining xp becomes pointless. Now we have consumables. (which is a crap feature) consumables do not add the satisfaction of attribute points, more life/energy or even skills.

Guildwars is a shallow game, it is the most basic of MMO's. It offers the least content and the least goals. GW2 needs to change that.

The key to high levels is that by the time your done with an area you have leveled up to meet the requirements of the next level, and do not need to farm xp after finishing the storyline in that areas, I.E missions, Quests. If you have 100 levels to gain, and every areas grants enough xp to level at a regular and timely pace, then it wouldnt matter how high the level cap was, because by the end of the game you would always be close. Lets say the last 10 levels would be the grind, but the last levels would not be needed to finish the game. they would be optional. and there would be added content for those players who did want to gain the last levels.
This way it would not feel like a grind at all. Because level progression would flow along with the games storyline.

If players have a problem with that, then its more along the lines of "the games too big" " the game has to much content" which has never really been a problem. If you dont like a lot of content in an MMO, stick with GW1. Or wait for the Q-bert mmo. I personally want a game i can play for years without getting bored. I want a game that takes more than a month to beat. If i plan to play the game for a year, 2 years, 3 years, then i want new content the entire time.

Exsample of this with higher level cap.

Prophecies, level cap 40
Factions, level cap 60
Nightfall, level cap 80
eye of the north level cap 100.

the levels are spaced out to flow with the game, so you are not stuck grinding, and you are not stuck bored after hitting max level. Missions and quests and optional content would progress levels along with the progress of the story.

The way gw is not sucks for keeping the game exciting and having a sense of "hey! I did it! I'm stronger than I was before! I can do more!" Instead its, Hey I beat the game, now I'm bored til the next installment. Lets go farm DoA hundreds of times to keep my mind off the flaws of the game and to allow me to forget that I will NEVER again grow stronger.

Balance can be done with greater power. If balance is the major issue for all the people, then I say get rid of levels all together, but I doubt the game will last long, Look at Ultima, its not very popular is it? I mean, It doesnt have nearly as many active players as most MMO's. And remember, GW is one of the smaller communities, WoW has more players and they charge a fee. People like more content and the feeling of getting stronger and accomplishing something. GW offers pretty looks. GW= super model game, GW2 should offer more than just new looks with the SAME STATS!

Tze · May 07, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchblade

lvl cap 20 ftw

I second that. Works very well as it is.

Jaythen Tyradel · May 07, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Unsure.
I want to know more from Anet on the "why's" and "how's" of a no level cap will be good for GW2.

I do like the idea of a level cap for many reasons that have been stated before in previous posts.
I would also add that increasing the level cap for GW2 should be considered since lvl 20 is the mainstay of GW1. We don't need level 100, and I personally am not enticed to keep dragging out playing to get to level 100 (flashbacks to Diablo 2).
Maybe a level 40-60 cap. Increases the time need to work on leveling to the max level (of course if there are quests/missions/activities to keep players busy without feeling the need to kill bunches of random enemies just to level would balance out that length of time), feeds most players (not all) desire to have that bigger number to work for, and won't feel like a small achievement and neither a goal that will appear unreachable/just always out of reach.

pamelf · May 07, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

i personally like the level cap of 20. Levelling is such a pain in the ass, so if you get there, you can actually focus on improving your gameplay rather than trying to level just so people don't shun you from their groups...

Boondocksaints · May 07, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

I think there shouldn't be a level cap as this gives some benefit to people who keep working on their characters but... the added benefit should decrease as you go up in level.

Squishy ftw · May 07, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I haven't read through all 8 pages but what I'd like to see is no visible level cap, but with a 'hidden' cap to stats.

What I mean is: People will continue to gain levels, but their stats will only increase until, say, lvl 20 or something.

cebalrai · May 07, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I say do away with levels entirely. Why is everyone still stuck on the 30-year old idea of experience points and "levels"? It's rigid, unsophisticated, and WAY tired of an idea. We've all been doing this same level-up crap since the advent of RPGs. How about a new idea?

There are many other ways to have character development. Why can't we make this fun instead of a re-tread of neanderthal 1979 dungeons and dragons?

Monk In The Box · May 07, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Level cap should end at level 100, Lower the XP requirements so it doesnt taken forever to get there, but make it take enough time that within a few months time you are not maxed level.

Level 20 cap blows, level 45 isnt much better, no offense but I want more meat with my patatoes in GW2, the higher the level, the more power, the stronger the monsters.

GW2 should be better than gw1, or what point is there in buying it? After getting to level 20 in gw1 you are as powerful as you can get, and everything sort of levels out and gets boring. Taking an idea from diablo, more levels means stronger foes, requiring better items and abilities. instead of filling the game with cloned items with the same boring stats, fill the game with hundreds of different items with dozens and dozens of special abilities. In gw, its all about the story, if the story isnt satisfying then you wont like the game because nothing changes past level 20, if you level to 20 in 1 day, then you have the rest of the game to be bored with.

I vote for level 100 cap. people bitch about spending time in the game, but whats the point in a game where you can accomplish everything within a few months. Other games require some dedication of time in order to achieve the higher tiers of power, like wow, eq, diablo. even RTS games require more time. GW does not, you can max level in a few hours, buy tomes to get skills and walk through the game half asleep.

Beyond level 100 would be a waste. it would mean each level would only gain little power making more levels pointless. Level 20 characters should get killed hard in level 30 areas, and level 50 chars should get destroyed in level 100 areas. More content means a better experience. Players are going to play the game for years anyways, so why not give them years worth of content to work towards, instead of crap titles that make grinding boring, find a way to make grinding so enjoyable, no one notices they are grinding in the first place.

For the diablo players, or players of other MMO's you know the feeling of getting that special item that makes you stronger against the monsters you face, the feeling of "I'm glad I stuck with it"

I also hope that GW2 has non custom armor that we can buy and find as loot drops, higher dmg weapons and skills and generally a more MMO feel rather than a stunted attempt at an MMO. Add in more items like rings, amulets, and more than just 5 pieces of armor. more designs.

I think areas should be created with certain levels in mind. level 1-10 areas, level 11-20, level 21-30, level 31-40, level 41-50, all the way up to 100. the beginning areas would be like playing in easy mode, the medium levels would be like normal mode and the final areas would be like hardmode.

Then add in elite areas that require no special tasks or party requirements to join, simply being level 100. and all the monsters will be stronger, the bosses will be on the epic scale. The lower level ranged elite areas would require only that you meet the max level range for that area, in other words, level 1-10 would require level 10 and so on.

I also think each area should have an "elite" section, exsample of this" level 1-10 area has an elite area where you must be level 10 to enter. each area would have its own elite section, and yes even when you are in a higher tier than the elite requires you could still go back and play it again. Say I am level 50, I can still go back to the level 10 elite area and smash the weak monsters if that is what i want to do. The elite sections will offer better loot than the normal sections, stronger monsters and different tactics.

The level 100 elite sections could be the realm of the gods, delivering insanely hard content with insanely powerful rewards to make the work involved with getting to level 100 well worth it. People want everything without doing the work, That needs to change, But also we need better rewards than that of gw1.

Guildwars has the potential to be one of the best games ever, but either due to lazy players or lazy devs it has not even gotten close. GW has some very cool aspects, but falls short, GW2 should take those cool aspects and throw everything else away.

PvP can be broken into sections also, beginner pvp, normal pvp, advanced pvp, hardcore pvp and elite pvp. all balanced within its level ranges.

The real problem is can anet offer such a big game or is it beyond their talents. We know they could do it an not charge monthly fees, but are they capable. I doubt it. I wish I had more faith in anets abilities, But I'v played Gw1 too long to live in a dream world. Anet should do what they have to in order to ensure gw2s life span, because soon another free to play game will come out and steal all but the most hardcore fans.

Ditto, and amen.

Phoenix Tears · May 07, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

If levels dont grant benefits and a level 40 has the same power as a level 100 then it would be pointless to have anything beyond level 40. Grinding xp to access new areas is not a good method. Mission accomplish this with less grind. Also if a level 21 is no different than a level 100 it would be bogus, I mean a level 2 isnt on par with a level 20. I guess people are unwilling to "play" a game, they just want to gain max power and be as good as the best. This is why GW does not require skill, only time. and never will.

Also saying those of us who want a high level cap, as no lifers is very stupid. I want to play 2 hours a night, 3 days a week, for the next 5 years. I could spend that time gaining my levels. I dont need to rush through the game.

Just because a game has 100 levels doesnt mean the players must have no life.

Here's a lesson for you. Moderation in all things. Don't be a video game glutton.

And heres the problem with low level caps of 20. you only have 19 levels worth of benefits and gains. Which limits what can be done in the game. You gain the levels quickly then your left wasting xp by not gaining levels. Up to max level you gain levels + benefits + skill points + attribute points. At level 20 you gain skill points. after you gain all the skills you are left with NOTHING else to do, so gaining xp becomes pointless. Now we have consumables. (which is a crap feature) consumables do not add the satisfaction of attribute points, more life/energy or even skills.

Guildwars is a shallow game, it is the most basic of MMO's. It offers the least content and the least goals. GW2 needs to change that.

The key to high levels is that by the time your done with an area you have leveled up to meet the requirements of the next level, and do not need to farm xp after finishing the storyline in that areas, I.E missions, Quests. If you have 100 levels to gain, and every areas grants enough xp to level at a regular and timely pace, then it wouldnt matter how high the level cap was, because by the end of the game you would always be close. Lets say the last 10 levels would be the grind, but the last levels would not be needed to finish the game. they would be optional. and there would be added content for those players who did want to gain the last levels.
This way it would not feel like a grind at all. Because level progression would flow along with the games storyline.

If players have a problem with that, then its more along the lines of "the games too big" " the game has to much content" which has never really been a problem. If you dont like a lot of content in an MMO, stick with GW1. Or wait for the Q-bert mmo. I personally want a game i can play for years without getting bored. I want a game that takes more than a month to beat. If i plan to play the game for a year, 2 years, 3 years, then i want new content the entire time.

Exsample of this with higher level cap.

Prophecies, level cap 40
Factions, level cap 60
Nightfall, level cap 80
eye of the north level cap 100.

the levels are spaced out to flow with the game, so you are not stuck grinding, and you are not stuck bored after hitting max level. Missions and quests and optional content would progress levels along with the progress of the story.

The way gw is not sucks for keeping the game exciting and having a sense of "hey! I did it! I'm stronger than I was before! I can do more!" Instead its, Hey I beat the game, now I'm bored til the next installment. Lets go farm DoA hundreds of times to keep my mind off the flaws of the game and to allow me to forget that I will NEVER again grow stronger.

Balance can be done with greater power. If balance is the major issue for all the people, then I say get rid of levels all together, but I doubt the game will last long, Look at Ultima, its not very popular is it? I mean, It doesnt have nearly as many active players as most MMO's. And remember, GW is one of the smaller communities, WoW has more players and they charge a fee. People like more content and the feeling of getting stronger and accomplishing something. GW offers pretty looks. GW= super model game, GW2 should offer more than just new looks with the SAME STATS!

You speak somewhat out of my soul ^^

Red Sonya · May 07, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

The idea behind GW2 just like all other sequels is to draw in other players/buyers or those who quit rather than attempt to move the homebase of players they already have(they'll probably like that also though). Thus, why things must and will change in GW2. Not a total WoW conversion, but, I expect to see high levels with bonuses to something like hit points or attributes, optional grinds and even some grinds required like for armors as shown in Gwen. This is a great improvement on the game afaIc because this will stop the running through the content at record speeds to obtain the best gear/skills. If you don't have the proper faction you don't get the armor/skills. Greatest idea they ever came up with to stop most of the running and bypassing content. Of course then there will be powerlevelers or powerfaction gainers that will replace running. But, still faction doesn't come like a run from Beacons Perch to Droks. Nope it will take a lot of time a long time I'm hoping before anyone can get max armors in GW2. I'd also like to see level requirements on weapons and offhands etc. So, even if you power faction up you still might not have the level for the gear. This keeps the economy from running out of control as thousands won't reach that upperend within a few days or weeks as in GW1. Sure, there will be a handful that will do it, but, not like in GW1 where everybody and their mothers brother is wearing max gear and has a max weapon and offhand within a day or two. Then everyone is off farming and driving market prices down into the dirt as we can see what happened to runes, ectoes and what used to be rare items in the game. There is no economy in GW anymore. From botting to duping to mass scale everyone can play anywhere now with UB the economy is broken, busted and kaput. I certainly hope they don't make that same mistake in GW2.

What I do hope for is improved drops and gains from grouping vs soloing. The more people you group with up to the max the higher pct of drops you'll get and the better VALUE loot you will get. Sure, everyone can still solo if they want, but, it will take them EQUAL time and effort to reach the point of drops and loot by those that group. It doesn't eliminate them from uber drops it just takes longer for them to get since they will be getting 8 to 1 drops in the process of soloing, unless of course Anet puts in the same loot code they are using now.

The balance needs to come in that if you group you are not penalized vs solo and that the amount and VALUE of the drops you get in a group are EQUAL to the amount VALUE of the drops you get if you solo. Most people say they solo cause they don't want to group with people or idiots, but, really the underlying reason is GREED, once the value of soloing becomes equal to grouping with 8 people then soloing won't look so viable. There must come a balance between soloing and grouping in the loot catagory so everyone gets equal drops, value, balance no matter how they choose to play. Thus will practically end the greed part of the equation in a lot of cases.

It's a very simple equation.

Group plays for 3-4 hours and each person gets the equivalent of someone who solos for 3-4 hours in VALUE of their drops. Everyone is equal to the other and time really has hardly any value except playtime. There will still always be the 24/7 soloists that are practically impossible to compete with. This is where the loot code should kickin after a certain amount of time per day to decrease the value of their drops over time. Past what a normal persons playtime would be on AVERAGE which I would say is 2-3 hours maybe 4 at the most. There are some mmorpgs that already use this method namely EQ2.
Of course it will never truely stop them unless you just cut them off completely and perhaps that's not a bad idea to rid these games of powergamers, and bots and 24/7 no life players.

phan · May 07, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elite God

As long as the lvl Cap is 100-300 I'm fine with a lvl cap.

If y'all mean 50-100.

No way >_<

wtf are you doing on these forums ><

zamial · May 07, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

no level cap at all.

Skills and attributes should have an effective cap however.

reason: on my main char I'm a level 20 with near 20 MILLION xp. no I don't farm or solo with him. I am WAY better on that character than some RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO fresh off of noob island and it should be reflected as such. Besides pvp community don't you want to be a level 20 and take down a level 9000 opponent just to taunt them???

Gli · May 07, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I'd prefer a low level cap, certainly no higher than 20, and not based on an arbitrary experience value, but based on a specific set of accomplishments. That way, if you team up with someone who's level X, you know the character has all the trappings and playing experience we'd associate with level X.

lyra_song · May 07, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Levels only exist as a way to partition off sections of a game anyway.

Easy area 1-10
Medium 10-15
Hard 15-20

Its an artificial barrier, so that a player who tries to enter an advance area without the proper level will get OBLITERATED. THey are then forced to do quests or level up in order to proceed.

Other artificial barriers involve terrain like gates or cutting off the map with a water barrier.

A much better barrier system should be based on player accomplishment and ability. Missions and new areas can only be accessed by beating prerequisite "achievement" missions. Running, power leveling and other such none-sense must be prohibited for such a system to work though.

This way advance players can advance as quickly as their skills allow them to, rather than be bogged down by a level system, while beginner players will run into missions and content thats just right for them.

HuntMaster Avatar · May 07, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

It just drives me nuts because I'v played so many games in my life, from the really good to the really bad, From very long games to really short games. I'v had great items with cool features and crap items with no features.And I have had hundreds of discussions on the mechanics and content of these games with hundreds of players, Most of which I never knew.

I can see a vision of what GW2 could become with the right support and content. And I feel its just not going to happen because people can't get past the negative to see the positive, Or they simply do not want change. They like the simplistic way to gain and do not want to work even more. They don't want there to be a chance that THEY might not be the best the entire time the game is out. They are affraid that it will require more from them than they are willing to give.

But if the game is fun, I mean really fun, and the mechanics work, the content is great and most of all, you wont run out of new things to do or find for the entire length of the games lifespan, then players would be suprised and thrilled at this new idea come to life, opening their eyes to new possibilities they might never have thought of before. Or maybe they simply forgot what it was like to play a game for the enjoyment and not for pwning noobs or gaining bragging rights over thousands of others. And would be reminded again of what it was like as a child just begining to learn about video games before they became jaded veterans of the digital age.

If people could stop worrying about whether or not a game will be similar to another game they do not like for whatever reason, (WOW) and give a new idea a chance even though it shares some ideas from a hated game you may find yourself very pleased indeed. You may see that even though this new game has similarities to the other games, (high level cap, xp grind) that its not the fact that the ideas are similar, its HOW THEY WORK.

sitting in an area for a week grinding xp is bad. so if we have higher levels then we need a better way to gain xp that goes with the flow of the story, if its a good enough method then we might not even notice at all and end up saying things like, "holy hell I'm level 100, I'v played for 9 months and It only feels like a week since I installed it. I love this game, this game FTW!

sadly players tend to limit or kill any chance of them finding enjoyment in a new way. And no matter what you can't please everyone, Those who love gw1 as is wont like gw 2 if they are set in their ways. Those who hate gw1's failings may love gw2s new options. Then there will be those players who say " its too much like Game X" even though the differences are great and the ideas, though similar are done very different.

I wish I was rich, I wish I owned my own gaming company and I wish I could deliver a solid game that would keep EVERYONE happy for a decade. Sadly I'm not blessed in this way. So I will hold out hope that one day we, the players, the consumers will finally get the game we have been waiting our entire gaming lives for. One that never gets borning, always offers new refreshing content and has gaming mechanics that are fair to everyone from beginners to 5 year veterans.

I just hope GW2 can offer a compromise. Add enough old to keep those fans happy, add enough new to keep those fans happy and throw in some special sause for the hell of it.

wilderness · May 07, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

(Posted as huntmaster did, and after a quick skim it seems we share the sentiment. I know it's annoying when threads get blotched with reiterated opinion, but I'll leave this here anyway.)

-

You guys are thinking about level caps with a very closed mind. Perhaps the level system will be something entirely new, something we've never seen before. Something that has no cap but doesn't grant the more hardcore an advantage.

It's difficult to think outside the box sometimes, and I can't imagine how the such a system would work, but just because every rpg type before has been more level = more power doesn't mean it can't be built differently.

GW2 won't be GWs, get over that for a start

zwei2stein · May 07, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

No, no... you're doing it wrong.

See how that word works? If you're going to argue with me, at least have the decency to think about your response before you do.

-

Added: I've faith such a system/idea wouldn't go against the GWs ethos of skill > time. You may argue that this game has strayed from that ideal, but you could also argue that GWs has become something of a beta test for future ideas - or even more simply: it's a learning curve.

I'm quite intrigued to discover what they have in mind.

No, no... you're doing it wrong.

We dont argue about "Innauwatioon" because there is none to argue about.

See, they didn't show any inclination to innovate. They are just adding standard MMO features to GW2 so that it is more desirable game for Red Phoenix Huntmasters.

Here is the skinny: Anet wants higher max levels. There is nothing you can do to innovate that concept unless you do not have higher levels. catch 22.

Flat power curve, Steep power curve, Combination of those two, Slow leveling, Fast leveling, Sidekicking, Meaningless levels, meaningfull levels. ... it was all tried by various games with various results.

In the end result is always the same: Bigger Number.

What do you exactly think they can do about it? Nothing except what other MMOs do: wrap it in good looking package and hope that when people are done unwrapping it they have committed themselves too much to game to just quit.

Celestial_Kitsune · May 07, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

No one even knows if they are skill keeping the same system, am I right?

I use attributes in a very general sense here: health, energy, damage, etc. We don't know the exact system they will use, but we do know that the level cap will be high (L100 - L150) or no level cap at all. You can't do anything about it - it is the so called "vision" of the developers and creating a thread will not change that. What we can do though, is let the developers know that it would be best to scale the attributes properly to avoid time > skill situation. They did state that the difference between L50 and L100 will be more than L100 and L150 (paraphrasing, don't recall the exact level), but still I wonder if the attribute gain would still continue. As Life Infusion mentioned, even very small difference in attributes would lead to discrimination. Thus, it would be best to stop attribute gain after some level.

wilderness · May 07, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Here is the skinny: Anet wants higher max levels. There is nothing you can do to innovate that concept unless you do not have higher levels. catch 22.

And this is why you don't (I hope) make games.

Bigger numbers don't have to be time > skill. And a leveling system doesn't even need to have external numbers about it. Just because you can't think outside the box doesn't mean they won't be able to.